Nonprofit Expert Episode 14 – How to Reframe Your Money Mindset To Scale Fundraising Efforts with Rhea Wong

Dana SnyderHost00:17

Welcome to Nonprofit Expert, presented by DonorPerfect, the host of the podcast Missions to Movements and creator of the monthly giving Mastermind, and I am very excited to have a good friend with me across the screen right Read More

Dana SnyderHost00:17

Welcome to Nonprofit Expert, presented by DonorPerfect, the host of the podcast Missions to Movements and creator of the monthly giving Mastermind, and I am very excited to have a good friend with me across the screen right now Rhea Wong. Welcome to Nonprofit Expert.

Rhea WongGuest00:33

Hey, dana, always a pleasure to hang out. Thanks for having me.

Dana SnyderHost00:37

And Rhea is giving me some of my own like money mindset advice before we even started this conversation. So I’m going to dig into this just as much as you are and ask some questions that hopefully are also on your minds. But before we do that, Rhea, can you please introduce ourselves and share a little bit about what led you to the sphere of fundraising?

Rhea WongGuest00:58

Yeah, thanks. So for folks who know me or folks who don’t, I started my career as a 26-year-old executive director, which may sound familiar to some folks. I literally did two Google searches my first day. Google search one was what does an executive director do? Google search two was how do you fundraise? And unfortunately I don’t think that this is such a rare occurrence in our field. We put people in these really important jobs without a lot of training and support.

So over the course of running my organization for 12 and a half years, I figured it out right. So, like a lot of us do, I took every webinar, I read every book, I attended every conference, I went and sat at the feet of anybody who would be willing to meet with me and by the end of the 12 and a half years I’d grown the organization. When I started, it was a 250K a year in private funds. By the time I ended, it was just a little under 3 million a year in private funds, the bulk of which were individuals, and it was awesome. But I was like why did it take me so long to figure that out? And so I think, particularly around individual gift fundraising, we have a lot of baggage about it, and it’s also where we should be focusing our efforts, because, if we look at the philanthropic pie, 74% of all monies given are given through individuals, and so it just seems silly to me that we wouldn’t be target focused on where the money is.

Dana SnyderHost02:26

Yes, oh, it’s so good. Okay, I’m already like so jazzed, rhea, is your people? Okay, what is? I’m sure you had a specific money mindset when you started that role versus now and how you coach organizations versus now and how you coach organizations what exactly is a money mindset? And maybe what’s common that you see with people that you work with when you start working with them?

Rhea WongGuest02:52

Yeah, so, dana, I’m going to get a little woo-woo here.

Dana SnyderHost02:55

So All the woo-woo.

Rhea WongGuest02:57

Yeah, so, just like fair warning, I’m originally from San Francisco. It’s actually I’m here right now, so I speak fluent woo-woo. But I really think the soul of fundraising is about getting right with yourself right. It’s getting your own energy, your own mindset together. And I was liking this too.

I mean, dana, I know you and I are married but like once upon a time we were single and there were moments in my single life where I would go through these dry periods where I couldn’t catch a date to save my life.

Also, kids this is before the internet dating situation anyway and then the minute I got a boyfriend, like everyone wanted my number I don’t know if this ever happened to you, right, and it’s because I realized that I was different, like I was putting out a different kind of a vibe.

And I think a lot of times in fundraising, when we’re approaching it from this transactional mindset, when we’re approaching it from kind of a place of desperation it’s a little bit hard because no one likes desperate we come into the conversation from a place of scarcity, from almost a place of desperation, versus coming from a place of abundance and recognizing that there’s more than enough out there and that we are presenting an opportunity to our donors to be part of something greater than themselves.

And so I think where I came into the field, I almost had this like I have this like begging mentality, or people will feel obligated or they’re going to think some kind of way about me because I’m asking for money and I can tell you like the moment that all switched for me. But once I kind of weight about me because I’m asking for money and I can tell you the moment that all switched for me, but once I kind of got my head right it’s ironic I actually didn’t spend any more time on fundraising than I did before, but I was able to go from the $250 to a million was a slog, but the $1 to $3 million was easy and I really attribute it to my mindset around fundraising.

Dana SnyderHost04:46

Okay. So what was that moment that changed the mindset?

Rhea WongGuest04:50

Yeah, so I tell the story a lot. So the moment that this really all changed for me was I came to the work with a lot of stories about money, and it’s either good or bad, it’s just it is what it is right. And so my family, like my parents, grew up in quite humble circumstances. My grandparents were immigrants from China and so, even though I had grown up middle-class, a lot of the same narratives were still there. And so I really believe that like, oh, people don’t really want to give, people think of it as an imposition, like people are going to want to hold on to as much money as they possibly can. Fast forward to.

When I met this woman, liz Sherman, she was someone I was trying to recruit on my board and she took me out to lunch and we were talking and she said before I would consider being on your board, I have to see your budget, fair enough. So I sent her my budget and she calls, calls back a couple of days later and says you know this revenue line for board giving, is that right? And collectively the board was giving $30,000. And I said, yeah, that’s right. And she’s like well, that’s unacceptable. Any board that I join the board has to be giving more. So here’s what I’m going to do I’m going to write you a check for $50,000 as a challenge for the rest of the board to match me, and if they do that, I’ll send another 50.

The check is in the mail, click and I was like what just happened?

And that was my first six figure gift, right? I remember holding this in my hand and just like staring at it, also being a little freaked out, like I’ve never held this much money in my hands before, but then I also really it was a moment that I really challenged a lot of the assumptions that I had about people and philanthropy and generosity and really understanding the mindset of people who had capacity but also wanted to be partners in the work. Right, because I do think that we have this cultural narrative about oh well, people like Elon Musk are just in it for themselves and they don’t really care about people and they’re just greedy and all they care about is building units on Mars or whatever it is. And the truth is there are lots of people in this world who have capacity, who genuinely want to see good things happen, who want outcomes and who want partnership, and I know there’s a long winded way of answering the question, but essentially I just it really challenged everything I knew I thought I needed to be true.

Dana SnyderHost07:17

Yes, so how did you shift in how you approached fundraising phone calls, in how you approached fundraising phone calls, emails you sent out? What was the difference from like pre that moment?

Rhea WongGuest07:30

post that moment. So one of my personal heroes is Bruce Lee, and what Bruce Lee says is be like water. And so when I think about being like water, what that means is I can flow right, I can be in the moment, I can react to a situation, but not necessarily be negatively impacted by a situation. So if the change that I made was what if I told myself a story that the money was out there and I just had to find it, as opposed to the story of there’s just not enough out there and I have to fight for everything and we’re going to fight over crumbs for everyone else, and I’m like well, what if we just believed something different? And it wasn’t easy, it didn’t happen overnight.

But if you believe that in fact the money is out there and it’s really just your mission to find it like there’s a pile of money out there in the world and you just need to figure out where it is it just becomes more of a game, it becomes more playful.

Figure out where it is, it just becomes more of a game, it becomes more playful. And then I think it also becomes about being strategic versus tactical. So when I say that, when you’re in tactical fundraising, you’re like, okay, I’m going to make the phone calls, I’m going to send the emails, I’m going to send out the annual appeal, without recognizing that actually, strategically, what you’re trying to do is figure out how to best reach the people who want to be part of your team, like who want to be on that bus with you. And so when we’re tactically focused, then we get really hung up on like, oh, that email didn’t work or like he didn’t take my phone call or whatever it is. But if we’re strategically focused and we use the North star of like we know that people are out there, we just need to find them, then you can try lots of different tactics and not have it be some kind of comment on who you are as a person or the quality of your mission or the quality of you as a fundraiser.

Dana SnyderHost09:17

Yes, I love this. I think so. Oftentimes, my biggest, I don’t know the most helpful thing when I went into being an entrepreneur was almost my naivete around testing things and being like okay, didn’t work, try something else. Yeah, okay didn’t work, try something else. I didn’t have this fear of failure, even though I was trying to reach out and find who were going to be my clients, who was going to work with me? Find, right, who were going to be my clients? Who is going to work with me?

And to your point about there being money out there and people that want to do good, I think when we see these national or international disasters or war and this massive influx in giving, I think that shows us that it’s like, oh, there is people that want to give and want to care and it’s just making sure we’re tying that message and that we’re connecting with them and we’re being top of mind and they are ready to give.

So just recently I was sharing this on International Women’s Day, I decided to give to two women-focused organizations, and it just because of the timing one of them I just saw posting like a thought leadership piece on LinkedIn and another one a friend had mentioned in conversation, and so they both happened to be top of mind, but they were also issues that mattered to me. Neither one of them technically marketed it to me in that moment. However, they had all the tools in the system set up properly to guide the rest of that transaction to happen. What do you think that can attribute towards negative money mindset and how do we work on fixing them, if we might have that?

Rhea WongGuest10:56

Yeah, my understanding and practice is really deepened. So I took a course called the trauma of money, which was really great, and what I came to understand about that is it’s not just about our own mindset, but it’s often tied to the trauma that we have either through our ancestors or through society, or through our upbringing or through policies like redlining. So it’s not that it doesn’t come from somewhere, it comes from real things. A lot of it has to do with a lot of healing that you have to do around the trauma that you have with money, and so that would be the first step. And there are lots of things that you can do. I mean therapy certainly it’s one meditation, reiki, you know any number of holistic practices that I’m sure we could go on and on about. Within that, I would say the biggest thing is to be aware of it, because I feel like a lot of times we put a story on somebody about oh well, they’re like this because they have this right, and it’s really interesting because I actually think in this world we’ve become much more aware of our biases around race and class and gender and sex and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and yet sort of prejudice and bias against people who have money is never addressed. It’s actually almost like celebrated that I would have negative bias against people who have money Commercially. I’m like, listen, I love people with money, I want to be a person with money, people with money are my favorite people. So I think, really challenging that inner narrative around, like what is it that I believe and is that something I want to continue to believe? Is that a belief that serves me?

And oftentimes we think when we have these I mean call them like buffering behaviors, like I’ll give you an example Some of us not us, of course, but we might know people who might not have a lot of money, but then they’ll go on a shopping spree, right, and then they’ll be in crazy credit card debt and intellectually you’re like, well, why would you do that? Right, like maybe you need more financial literacy? Well, we know financial literacy in and of itself does not help. What that is is actually a response to your nervous system being disrupted, and so in that moment and oftentimes that comes from a trauma perspective it comes from maybe you have scarcity in your past, et cetera, and your dopamine levels might naturally be low. And so in that moment that you’re out like shopping or whatever it is. You’re raising your dopamine levels to feel better and then you get on that shame train of like oh I’m a bad person, I’m bad with money and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I think part of it is really just finding ways that we can regulate our nervous system and then also just like pausing before we indulge in the behavior. And so, for me, when we’re in a survival state, we are amygdala, which is the lizard part of our brain, tends to be very active, and that’s where we experienced the fight, flight, freeze or fawn responses which I’m sure folks might be familiar with In the nonprofit sector.

What I have observed a lot and I’ll speak for myself when I’m feeling threatened, I go into fight mode. And for me, fight mode is workaholism. I’m like all right, I’m going to grind harder, I’m going to dig harder, I’m going to work harder, because I’m just going to fight my way out of this situation, because nobody likes to feel helpless. No one likes to feel that they’re being threatened. For some people it may look like procrastination, for other people it may look like avoidance. I mean, we all have our coping mechanisms. Here’s the good thing we are human beings with this big beautiful brain right. We have this prefrontal cortex right behind our forehead, and our prefrontal cortex can help us to become aware of when we are in a survival state. And so it’s not necessarily that we’re never going to be in a survival state, but I think by cultivating awareness and discernment, we can start to practice getting ourselves out of this reactive survival mode.

Dana SnyderHost14:54

So let’s just say I’m in one. Let’s say I am in that state, I am in my fight mode, but I’ve realized it. What are some of the tactics that maybe you’ve utilized or worked with your clients on, on getting out of that state?

Rhea WongGuest15:08

Good question. So there are a couple of things I like to do. So there are bottom-up strategies and there are top-down strategies. So bottom-up strategies and for folks who may be aware of the body, keeps the score. We keep emotions in our body. So sometimes an example when antelopes are getting, or I guess their gazelles are being chased on the savannah by a lion, after the chase is over, assuming they survive, they’ll kind of like daze out for a little while and they’ll just like shake themselves and that’s like their physical body, just like shaking it off.

The thing is human beings, because we have these big beautiful brains, we replay things again and again and again. Right, we have a hippocampus and so I mean I’m sure you may know folks in your life who are like, who like constantly replay these like negative events over and over and over again, like re-traumatize themselves. It’s because our brains are really good at recording. Anyway, a couple of things you can do here. So physically getting out, like going on a run, going on a walk, like dispelling some of that energy, that’s helpful. Box breathing is really helpful. So the Navy, se, navy seals, actually practices it’s when you breathe in for four counts, you hold for four counts, you breathe out for four counts and you hold for four counts and it’s actually the breathing out and holding that is really important because it stimulates your vagus nerve this is bringing me back to like labor yeah, yeah, that’s why the maz is really good.

So what we’re trying to do there is to kick in our parasympathetic nervous system which is the rest and digest and to calm down the sympathetic nervous system, which is like the fight or flight response. Some other things that you can do is sort of narrative based. So actually I just did this really great practice with Shula, the entrepreneur’s therapist. But what you can do is get yourself back into what we call the window of resilience, because when we’re overly stimulated or under stimulated, we can either get to like super hyperactive, because we’re like all revved up, or we can get into like catatonic, right, like when you’re like I can’t do anything, I’m just going to lay here because I’m like overly stimulated. Yeah, so to get ourselves back into the window of resilience. Maybe we can do this together, dana.

So think of something in your life that is like six out of 10 annoying, like if 10 is like the most traumatic thing you’ve ever experienced, and one is like I don’t care. Like, think about something that’s like a five or six, and one is like I don’t care. Think about something that’s like a five or six. Okay, let me know when you’re there, okay, okay, what is the feeling that you have about it?

Dana SnyderHost17:41

Wish it would be taken care of, but don’t really care that much to do anything about it.

Rhea WongGuest17:47

So what’s the feeling? Is that like an aggravation? Is it an annoyance? Like what’s the? Yeah?

Dana SnyderHost17:51

I would say it’s an slight annoyance, okay.

Rhea WongGuest17:56

So you feel annoyed yeah.

Dana SnyderHost18:08

Like kind of feel that feeling of annoyance and then say I’m noticing that I’m feeling annoyed. I am noticing that I’m feeling annoyed.

Rhea WongGuest18:11

Where are you feeling?

Dana SnyderHost18:12

that annoyance in your body, that I’m feeling annoyed. Where are you feeling that annoyance in your body? I feel like right here in my chest.

Rhea WongGuest18:18

Okay, so I’m feeling annoyed to. I’m noticing that I’m feeling annoyed. Okay, Take another breath. And now I want you to say and said I’m noticing that something in me is feeling annoyed.

Dana SnyderHost18:32

I’m noticing that something in me is feeling annoyed.

Rhea WongGuest18:38

Okay, take a breath. How Does that change the feeling of annoyance at all?

Dana SnyderHost18:46

Yeah, I think it just calms overall, like the system. It’s actually very interesting the breaths anytime that I am struggling with something. A lot of times my husband and I will like hold hands and would like do deep breaths like three of them together, and it’s just always just like okay.

Rhea WongGuest19:06

Yeah, together, and it’s just always just like okay, yeah, and what that practice does is actually, at least for me, it helps me to feel get a little bit outside of the feeling, right, so the feeling can be really like oh god, I feel so annoyed. I am annoyed right the end, like when I say I am something that’s an identity statement, if I feel something that’s an emotion, and emotions pass, but then if I can get further, if I could step a little bit outside of the experience, like removed from it.

Yeah, I almost think of it like you know, when you see the earth and then you zoom out and it’s like a little marble, it’s like, oh, now I’m like an observer to my emotional experience and I’m not necessarily. I’m like observing that there’s something in me that feels, and I’m not necessarily in it. I’m like observing that there’s something in me that feels and I’m noticing that there’s something in me that feels, so you can use that practice as a way to kind of just help calm yourself down a little bit, like look, I get it being an ED.

There are many moments where you will feel very triggered and very activated. Our ability to respond versus react will make our lives better.

Dana SnyderHost20:09

Yes.

Rhea WongGuest20:10

Yes.

Dana SnyderHost20:10

Oh my gosh. You have done so much coaching with clients. Do you have an example that you could share that was a transformation for somebody with these practices?

Rhea WongGuest20:19

Yeah, oh my gosh, so many. Well, it’s funny. Someone just sent me an email today or yesterday, I guess Friday. Someone just sent me an email today or yesterday, I guess Friday. Anyway, what day is it when she said that she was on the phone with a donor, a potential donor, and in the course of the conversation she closed a $50,000 gift. And had she not gone through my training, had she not learned how to be kind of emotionally present, she’s not sure that she would have closed the gift. Now, whether she would or wouldn’t have, I don’t know, but I think, because she was able to be much more present in that conversation, it really helped to create that emotional connection Because, as we know, at the end of the day, all we have is trust. All we have is the here and now. Who are you as a person?

Dana SnyderHost21:09

and relationship between each other.

Rhea WongGuest21:11

Right. And so if we haven’t done the work of unpacking all of our money stuff, unpacking all of the narrative, and allowed ourselves the opportunity to be fully present and to hear each other and also to hear what’s not being said, because I think that’s really important too Are we creating the conditions for people to feel connected to us, to feel that they can trust us?

Dana SnyderHost21:32

Yes, so good. Okay, and I want to lean one step further into this. There’s a lot of conferences and events that can help us with skills and tactics. Do you believe that fundraising skills and strategies can be effectively taught, or does it largely depend on an individual’s money mindset to see real success?

Rhea WongGuest21:58

I think both things are true. Look, I think you can grind your way into being a successful fundraiser, but in my experience, all of the most successful fundraisers I’ve ever seen have this mentality of that money is simply a resource, right, and it’s really us that puts all of this emotional stuff on it. We make it mean security, we make it mean survival, we make it mean that I’m a worthy person, we make it mean something about our value as humans or a value of our mission. If we personalize it, if we de-emotionalize it, if we just recognize it for the resource that it is and, by the way, a renewable resource, it’s really time that it’s not the renewable resource. Yes, money is just money, right, and so if we just like take it down, y’all like just relax a little bit and let it flow, I think that can only help. Because I do think, like you have to have the skills. I’m a big skills person. I think skills plus mindset equals unstoppable. And I think a lot about the Dead Sea. So do you know anything about why the Dead?

Dana SnyderHost23:03

Sea is dead. I know it’s full of salt. It is full of salt. So can things not live there? Know it’s full of salt, it is full of salt. So can things not live there because it’s full of salt.

Rhea WongGuest23:10

Yes, that is exactly right. But the reason it’s full of salt is that rivers and oceans flow into the Dead Sea but nothing flows out, and so, because it doesn’t flow out, that’s why it’s so highly concentrated with salt, and I think that money is the same way that we have to flow with it. Money, and I think that money is the same way that we have to flow with it. Money is just energy, and it’s us that kind of keeps us, you know, all locked up or a little bit blocked around it, and I think if we could just like relax and let it flow a little bit, and really I almost want to say playful, that it must be a little bit playful about. Yes, how can I help people connect with the things that would touch their hearts, that would help them to build their legacy, and if money is a thing that we can combine along with the work that we do to build something beautiful?

Dana SnyderHost23:55

together let’s do that. Oh, so good, so good. There’s so many big things in this conversation. I think, when, from the standpoint of money mindset, when I became an entrepreneur seven years ago, I think my mindset changed so much on the personal aspects of money because it was business, it was money in, money out, an organization, it’s the same, where it’s like you’re able to do more good with more money. So why would we not ask for it? Why would we not want the most generous gift? Because we’re trying to do the things that no one else is doing and changing the world.

Yeah, and that is an unapologetic ask for something, and if somebody’s not down for it right now, maybe they will be six months from now, maybe they will be a year from now, maybe they, as a friend who will be, and so I love the idea of just being like your funds are going to help us get there.

If it’s’s not right now, okay, cool, thank you so much. Like having this mindset of just like my husband and I always say abundance, like continue to bring abundance flow easily and freely into our lives, and I think there is something very so true about having that energy surrounding all of the work that we do. I think when we send out I talk about marketing in my work and when you’re putting together marketing campaigns and you have joy and fun and energy behind it, like that people feel it. If you have stress and nervousness, people also can sense that and, like you’re saying, desperation. So I lastly just kind of want to ask you are there things that you would recommend in the season of whatever this listener right now is going through, that you would recommend to them to just cross that one hurdle, do that one thing to be able to breathe some new, like fresh air into a money mindset in the work that they do?

Rhea WongGuest25:44

Yeah, there’s so much. So I think 2024 is already proven to be a very activating time, right? So I think people say self-care and it sounds so cheesy, but like, legitimately self-care, like put the phone down, stop doom scrolling, turn off the news, like you, more information is not going to change the state of the world. I don’t mean disconnect. I think it’s important to know what’s happening in the world but be less emotionally attached to it. So I think that’s one thing. And the second thing I’ll add is I think, as fundraisers, we often calibrate our value or our success to the gift, right, but the truth of the matter is like you have no control over whether or not someone says yes or no, like you literally do not control their mind. I’ve tried, believe me, I’ve tried. So what would it look like for us to tag our success to the ask? Did I get the ask out? Of my mouth.

Did I do everything that I could do within my realm of control, like, did I cultivate properly, did I send the followers, or whatever? And hey, listen, whether they say yes or no is beyond my control, but what is in my control is did I get it out of my mouth?

Dana SnyderHost26:58

Ooh, I love that I could just see like team meetings or slacks, where it’s like I made the ask Instead of I got the gift celebration. The celebration is. I made the ask Instead of I got the gift celebration. The celebration is. I made the ask. I made the ask. That’s awesome. Okay, what a mic drop moment to end this conversation on Rhea has plethora of them. Thank you so much for joining us here for the conversation today. Where can everyone find you? Where can they learn more from you?

Rhea WongGuest27:26

My podcast Nonprofit Lowdown, or my website, reawongcom, where you can find all the things, and I’m most active on LinkedIn. So if you’re listening to this and this is resonating with you, hit me up on LinkedIn.

Dana SnyderHost27:36

Yes, go find her on LinkedIn. Amazing Everyone. Thank you so much for listening to. Nonprofit Expert presented by Donor Perfect. If you are looking for a personalized growth plan, I have been working with Donor Perfect and I’m so excited on this curated quiz. We will answer five super quick questions and we have curated from podcasts, webinars, ebooks all of these different resources for free put together based on your answers, that you can go to DonorPerfectcom backslash growth to take this five question quiz to get your curated, personalized donor growth plan. Until next time, have a good one.

DonorPerfectThank you for listening to Nonprofit Expert presented by DonorPerfect. For more information and a special offer, visit donorperfect.com/podcast.